I Wonder Why.
by Albert 1

24717251
# 1. 4/12/08 12:56 PM by BF
Ok, friend Albert. I'll jump into the water.

I consider this societal/religious group ultra-conservative.

I recall ethnic and religious segregation as a child (more so in my community than racial segregation as everyone was of European heritage, although those Eye-talians WERE a little for some members of my neighborhood, so they were suspect); I think I was in fourth grade before I even MET a non-Roman Catholic.

As the European groups immigrated, first were the Western European immigrants who entered the US roughly from Colonial times through nearly the turn of the 20th century. As the Eastern and Southern European immigrants entered, in some areas they displaced the earlier groups of immigrants.

There were pockets -- neighborhoods of people sharing the same language and same religion. Poles hung around with Poles, the Germans with Germans, the Italians with other Italians, the Irish, etc.

(An undercurrent to all this were the slaves and former slaves, but that is a different history.)

This is a very long, drawn-out way of saying that although the cultural and religious groups in large part eventually melded together, the FLDS isolated themselves and became a closed community as assurance toward maintaining their traditional way of life.

Too, I hear echoes of some of the messages the FLDS preach in some of the ultra-Conservatives here at WOTL.

Editor's Note: Excellant take! I agree with your characterizing of the FLDS as ultra conservative.

The silence of WOTL traditional LDS folk on this situation is quite telling.

I suspect sympathisers exist here who might have difficulty justifying their sympathy.

It's easy to criticize Muslim taliban radicals, more difficult if the Taliban characteristics appear in a Christian sect, and probably even harder if the sect is or was LDS in nature.



20510849
# 2. 4/12/08 1:33 PM by mk
other demands- prevent me from taking the time to share an opinion. Don't misconstrue silence as an approval or disapproval.

Editor's Note: Whether I misconstrue or accurately perceive any particular individual's motives depends just as much on my knowledge of the individual as the context they operate in.

If you choose to find time later to offer an opinion concerning this topic I will still welcome it as I have found your input concerning various issues to be quite informative, clear, honest, and valuable.



24717251
# 3. 4/12/08 1:43 PM by BF
A clarification: I meant to say, ". . .although those Eye-talians WERE a little DARK for some members of my neighborhood, so they were suspect); I think I was in fourth grade before I even MET a non-Roman Catholic.

And I am a true believer in hybrid vigor.

Editor's Note: I have an uncle by marrige who I had not seen in many years.

I spotted a small very dark skinned man in Geneseo Wegmans and then did a double take as it was my 100% Caucasian?? uncle Albert.

I know that some Sicilians have African or Arabian contributions to their genetic background.

All four of my grandparents and both of my parents were light skinned Sicilians with one grandfather being blonde haired.

Re Hybrids or as Billy-Bob would say, "Mongrels": It is proven in dog breeds that hybrids are generally stronger and healthier.



20908806
# 4. 4/12/08 2:22 PM by Eileen
I think I would prefer to quote you on your response to another column - There is a difference between "ignoring" and just not choosing to enter into a debate.

Editor's Note: Good relate! In the two specific circumstances a stated reason can mean a lot.

MK offered hers, I offered mine concerning why I don't enter into dialog with Peter.

Which leaves the lack of response to Dave's original column when he brought up WACO and the total lack of any other mention of the current FLDS situation to be wondered about.



14406458
# 5. 4/12/08 3:13 PM by Jay - OR
What mk said.

I would add--in the minute I have--that I too welcome your return to writing. And, slightly aslant of the question in your column, I appreciate that you and I have "discussed," rather than "debated," the latter--on WOTL--seemingly having degenerated into the aforementioned acrimony and personal attacks.

Later maybe?

Editor's Note: I always welcome your input Jay as I consider you one of the top thinkers on this site.

Your background would seem to offer an interesting slant to the current FLDS situation.

Later is better than never and I can be patient.



22397390
# 6. 4/12/08 4:05 PM by Jim - Rochester
Appears you Missed Lonsberry's defense of FLDS the other day. Check him out here. Many of the comments are particularly telling.

"TAKING ALL THE KIDS WAS WRONG"

http://www.lonsberry.com/writings.cfm?story=2356&go=4

Editor's Note: Thanks Jim. I wonder if he will stick with his opinion after the investigation is further along.



22168775
# 7. 4/12/08 4:23 PM by albert 1
Jim referred me to one of the colums on Lonsberry's website.

I will quote him out of context: Crimes in America are committed by individuals, not groups"

Apparently Bob never heard of RICO or the legal concept a criminal enterprise which could possibly be used against the FLDS.

Editor's Note: Bob's column about taking all the children are well worth a read.

The column is a recent one on his website.



22377102
# 8. 4/12/08 6:37 PM by lon bonsberry
it's my impression that the FLDS is adhering to the original principles established by the church founder joseph smith, and thus is the conservative wing of the mormon religion. the mainstream mormon church compromised this principle in order to attain statehood. the LDS church retained it's discrimination of blacks until well into the 1970's. i wonder if the FLDS still retains this aspect of the original religion?

Editor's Note: Yes, one third hand account which I heard on radio was of a lady standing in line at a grocery store with her daughter. She cautioned the little girl not to stand too close to a black customer because his evil might rub off onto her.

Although the FLDS may have begun their sepearatism with original LDS principles I don't think that is the reality now.

I have no problem with plural marrige among adults and realize that the mainstream LDS disavowed it to better be in compliance with civil law and general society.

However the brainwashing and forced marriges of children under the age of 18 is incompatible with human society let alone any state's laws.



22409680
# 9. 4/12/08 9:35 PM
have you considered that the complaint lodged against this cult was faked? While I don't support the cult, I do ask my gov't to follow the laws and not fabricate an excuse to search or prosecute whoever falls in their sights. the facts don't quite seem to match the initial complaint by an anonymous 16 yr old - whose "husband" who is beating her is 2 states away. I hope they don't target rogue bloggers next:)



22490024
# 10. 4/13/08 9:18 AM by Zjabs
I have decided to tone down picking on Christians as this fine group obviously knows more than I do. Hey, I've been trying for years to get young girls to sleep with me- I was stupid in that I never tried the "God card". Darn....

Editor's Note: I thought you had Jesuit teachers. Where do you put them on the knowledge scale?



24717251
# 11. 4/13/08 3:39 PM by BF
"Mongrel" to me has a pejorative connotation.

I much prefer "hybrid vigor" because of the connotation in a scientific and horticultural sense of the whole being stronger than the parts.

Editor's Note: That is why I coupled the "mongrel" mention with the "Billy Bob" qualification.

Oops, I think I just did an "Obama", condescending, for sure!



20590753
# 12. 4/14/08 7:26 AM by Zjabs
They were smarter than me.... Actually I learned a lot but have nothing to compare it to, as I didn't attend but one school. I did learn how to write a convoluted sentence though.

Editor's Note: "If you can't beat them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$h**."



21595845
# 13. 4/16/08 8:26 AM
don't matter if they are too far right or too far left.

they are too far from what the Bible says is righteous.

Don't matter in which direction they walked in,politically.

Editor's Note: Another "the Bible says" person. The last time I checked there were over forty different versions of "the Bible"

Try checking out the Lamsa version or perhaps even Thomas Jefferson's masterpiece.

What makes the version you use better?



20404200
# 14. 4/16/08 8:33 AM by Hawkeye - East Rochester, NY
Actually, I made practically this same comment to one of Zjabs' columns but,

Many if not most LDS members are admittedly very conservative. They believe in the Constitution and Bill of Rights, follow the rules of their church, are hard working and industrious. They haven't massacred anyone in over 150 years (sorry, had to say it) and they officially discontinued polygamy way back in 1890.

Then there's Warren Jeff's splinter group which is obviously very liberal. First, like any liberal, they think they are above the law. Laws are for other people, but not liberals. Look at algore and the clintons for all the proof of that you might need. (Controlling legal authority, anyone? Campaign finance debacle? And the rest of the list is almost endless and still going on.)

Then according to KTAR.com (http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=803901) for the picky ones,

"Jeff's group has been funded for years by taxpayers who didn't know it, Ross says."

"Seventy percent of the people in Colorado City were on food stamps, 40 percent of the women were receiving assistance through a WIC (women's and children ) fund. The group also got money through state funds, through federal funds which were accumulated for infrastructure within their township."

THAT is absolute, undeniable PROOF that they are all liberals. FLDS and liberalism- two of the wackiest, most destructive, and worst religions in America in the same group.

Editor's Note: You seem to differ with most currently available dictionarys regarding the definition of the word "liberal".

When a group attempts to resist a natural evolutionary force and wants to hang on to original concepts,even when they seem to be outmoded, I would call that tendency "conservative", perhaps even, ultra-conservative. .

I see little difference between FLDS and Islamic Taliban in basic philosphies, only in the details..

Would you describe the Taliban as a "liberal" Islamic sect.

Hawk, as socio-political groups go, all Westerners are considered "liberal" by Islamic standards, a perception I concour with..



20404200
# 15. 4/16/08 11:44 AM by Hawkeye
thumbsdown.gif What part of THIS did you not understand?

"Seventy percent of the people in Colorado City were on food stamps, 40 percent of the women were receiving assistance through a WIC (women's and children ) fund. The group also got money through state funds, through federal funds which were accumulated for infrastructure within their township."

THAT is absolute, undeniable PROOF that they are all liberals.

Editor's Note: You are confusing economic with social philosophys, and I suspect deliberately,so your "broad brush" description can be validated.

The FLDS are socially and religiously , extreme rightist conservatives attempting to promulgate an earlier style of Mormonism.

Their exploitation of food stamps etc does make them as having an econonomic philosophy which seems parallel to liberal economics.



21595845
# 16. 4/16/08 5:49 PM
regarding comment number 13.

which bible version would disagree with what I wrote?

Editor's Note: Appartently you are not too familiar with Thomas Jefferson's version of "The Bible"



16136539
# 17. 4/18/08 12:02 PM by BF
Re "Their exploitation of food stamps etc does make them as having an econonomic philosophy which seems parallel to liberal economics":

I have read somewhere that the FLDS refer to this as "bleeding the beast."

How such an overweeningly patriarchal community can be misconstrued as "liberal" flies in the face of logic. But I guess that's par. . . .

Editor's Note: As Carlos Castenada wrote "We all have a seperate reality"

Hawkeye is entitled to his, as I AM to mine.

"nd never the twain shall meet"



20510849
# 18. 4/18/08 3:53 PM by mk
I believe there have been infractions upon civil rights from both parties: The State of Texas and this FLDS group. Two wrongs will never make anything right, and I believe there are several better ways to handle this.

Every time I try to comment about this, I am interrupted.

Editor's Note: Who is interrupting you? Don't you realize that the state of Texas doesn't seem to care mucch for civil rights.

There is a general rule among civil officials in all levels of government in all states that when a question of child abuse is concerned that they first be isolated from the parents.

In my opinion this is not always fair but seems to be the most practical approach.

I am aware that many cases have been resolved with this procedure having been found to be unnecessary but I suspect with the present situation that it is necessary.



20510849
# 19. 4/18/08 4:59 PM by mk
My apologies, I don't really have time to finish and I have people coming and going continuously at home and business.

Editor's Note: I got it. The "interruptions are part of your daily life.



616572
# 20. 4/19/08 1:08 AM by mk
I believe what is meant by the "liberal" comment, is the supposition I've heard of before on local talk shows and other places, in that members of this religious group take advantage of government programs, but don't recognize laws outside of their community.

Regardless, I think this was handled improperly. Each child and person should be investigated individually. I am really troubled by the group prosecution/investigations. Its not right.

Editor's Note: This group still holds up the convicted Warren Jeffs and his principles as Truth.

The problem appears to be one consistant with the group's practices, not just the behavior of a small portion of the members.

This evidence so far has all the attributes of what legal scholars would deem "a criminal enterprise" even though there may be some members who might be law abiding by civil statuate.

Therefoe the practice of isolating or protecting minor children (some incorrectly have called this "arresting") seems the better choice by the state of Texas child welfare officials while the specifics are being investigated.

The news I observed on Friday does indicate that pro bono non-FLDS attorneys are working with each child individually to assure that civil rights and correct legal procedures are being followed.

Although plural marrige is illegal in both the U.S. and Texas I personally have no problem with it if engaged in by adults who have legal freedom of choice.

There is being much uncovered with this specific cult's practices that points to much worse.

Lastly, I thank you for a rare offering of a sincere opinion.



23125903
# 21. 4/19/08 7:40 AM by Jim - Rochester
The best explanation of the differences between Conservatives and liberals I ever heard follows.

Conservatives are strict followers of the 10 commandments!

Liberals are more followers of the beatitudes.

Editor's Note: That only accounts for the Christians and Jews.



30679826
# 22. 4/19/08 7:57 AM by Mark - Greece
The actions of this group are so extreme in both directions as to defy definition as either ultra-ultra conservative or liberal. But then again, the same can be said for how the State handled this. However, while these children are in custody, they should all be given physicals to see if there are sexual crimes going on. Arrest and prosecute the perpetrators, return the children to their mothers, and make it clear that the childrens' health will be closely monitored in the future. THEN FOLLOW THROUGH! I could care less about their religious beliefs and lifestyle, but society cannot allow them to use religion as an excuse to have free reign to abuse the children.

Editor's Note: Amen



30679826
# 23. 4/19/08 7:58 AM by Mark - Greece
The actions of this group are so extreme in both directions as to defy definition as either ultra-ultra conservative or liberal. But then again, the same can be said for how the State handled this. However, while these children are in custody, they should all be given physicals to see if there are sexual crimes going on. Arrest and prosecute the perpetrators, return the children to their mothers, and make it clear that the childrens' health will be closely monitored in the future. THEN FOLLOW THROUGH! I could care less about their religious beliefs and lifestyle, but society cannot allow them to use religion as an excuse to have free reign to abuse the children.

Editor's Note: Amen



23126858
# 24. 4/19/08 8:12 AM by appropos nothing....
i just was moved in reading one of BFs comments that included :

24717251 # 3. 4/12/08 1:43 PM by BF A clarification: I meant to say, ". . .although those Eye-talians WERE a little DARK for some members of my neighborhood..."

it made me ponder how when i was growing up our city was definitely divided by nationalities...there was the polish section, the italian section, the irish section...the italian kids had their own school, Mt. Carmel, and it was right around the corner from ours, where the polish and irish kids went, st. peter's.

i had fair skin and freckles and green eyes and blonde/brown hair...and i LONGED to have dark dark brown hair and chocolate brown eyes and PIERCED EARS....oh how i wanted to be ITALIAN!!! despite the fact that my MOTHER was half italian...we were, i believe, the northern part of the country...fair skinned, light colored eyes...or is that southern italy? whatever...i wanted the italian thanksgiving more than anything: whole MEALS served as appetizers...THEN the turkey...the house stuffed to overflowing with relatives....

it makes me sad to realize how much my own children have actually missed by not living someplace where there were "neighborhoods"...in the truest sense of the word. and it amazes me to look back on my own life to see that i was only one generation apart from my immigrant ancestors...my grandparents' families, on both sides, had emigrated to the U.S....from ireland and italy...and now things are so "watered down"...i guess that's PROGRESS, eh? yeah...progress....wandering away from deep family connections....having none, basically...

Editor's Note: interesting name, "appropos nothing"

I cought the end of that lifestyle in the 1940's and feel richer fo having done so.

BTW I have visited Toronto Canada many times that still has some good examples of ethnic neighborhoods with their Chinese, East Indian, and Jamaican peoples.

Their shops and resteaunts are a welcome change from the ones I usually do business with.



24717251
# 25. 4/19/08 9:09 AM by BF
I am in complete agreement with "apropos nothing" in that much is lost the further away from the immigrant ancestors we get.

While I am a firm proponent in hybrid vigor I see the value in the "salad bowl" concept as opposed to the "melting pot" concept of communities.

My immigrant grandfather believed in America, valued education, and made darn sure his children learned proper English, even though he never mastered the language himself. My mother may never have felt the loss of her father's native language, but I sure do.

I am lucky, however, in that I possess not only several pieces of my grandparents' furniture, I also have photographs of these pieces of furniture, ca. 1945, in my grandparents' house.

Editor's Note: Both of my parents grew up with non English fluent parents.



24717251
# 26. 4/19/08 9:16 AM by BF
PS to apropos nothing:

My mother only very reluctantly agreed to allow me to have my ears pierced back in the early 1970s -- she felt it a BARBARIC practice.

I do have earrings from my mother's grandmother, though, for pierced ears.

Editor's Note: I must be a little culturally conservative as I don't see beauty in any body piercings or adornments beyond traditional ear rings for women.



23133427
# 27. 4/19/08 11:30 AM by Jim - Rochester
"My mother only very reluctantly agreed to allow me to have my ears pierced back in the early 1970s -- she felt it a BARBARIC practice."

While I agree with Albert about mutilation, I am of the opinion that women should be allowed as many holes in their head as they want. This is still a free country!

Editor's Note: pervert!!!



24717251
# 28. 4/19/08 12:08 PM by BF
So, you're not into tattoos, eh, Albert?

YOU AM entitled to your opinion! :-)

Editor's Note: One small butterfly out of sight, maybe, or a temporary washable one like kids use.



27818372
# 29. 2/23/15 10:28 AM by BF
This is another good column thread. Thanks for reposting these.

I would like to add a comment regarding radical groups:

Islam has ISIS (if I am defining ISIS correctly); Christianity has the KKK, the Knights Templar, etc.

Editor's Note: There are many parallels between ISIS and the KKK.

To better understand ISIS or the Taliban one must first have a general understanding of Asymmetrical warfare.

Vietnam was another environment that demonstrate asymmetrics.

I was invited to try out for Special Forces (Green Berets) when I took basic training in 1961 at Fort Leonard Wood Missouri.

After testing there they correctly thought I would better serve as a Missile Technician

I had to enlist for an additional year to seal the deal.

Asymmetrical warfare is well understood by the Pentagon but will take longer for Congress and the voters to put theory into practice.'



27818372
# 30. 2/23/15 11:24 AM by BF
I'm too lazy this morning to look up "asymmetrical warfare" so I'll just ask you:

Is it similar to what happened during the American Revolution, wherein the English not only had the bright red coats, they also fought in line formation, and the Colonial rebels fought more in "guerrilla warfare" style?

Editor's Note: If you have a broad concept of guerrilla style warfare

Basically symmetry implies equal power or forces involved especially in number of participants.

Asymmetry is correctly attributed to any revolutionary conflict but goes wider than just battlefield tactics.

Asymmetry can also be applied to conflict in general.




include comments